Final
Ballot Analysis: Referendum C

COMMITTEE ON LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL

Votes:
Action Taken:
add language specifying what an individual and wha
Amend page 5, lines 19-22, "THE 15 OTHER REFUNDS A
Moved a substitute motion to Representative Madden
Moved to adopt the final staff document as amended
Moved to amend Figure 1 to label the dotted line t
Moved to amend page 3, line 27, after "money", ins
Moved to amend page 4, lines 19-21, strike the fir
Moved to amend page 4, strike lines 8-10, through
Moved to amend page 5, line 30, strike "because th
Moved to amend page 5, lines 11-13, strike the sen
Moved to amend page 5, lines 19-21, strike "ARE
Moved to amend page 5, lines 20-22. Strike everyt
Moved to amend the label in Figure 1, strike "Futu
Moved to include an estimated amount of the impact
Representative Madden moved to amend page 1, line 		TIE
TIE
PASS
PASS
TIE
Pass Without Objection
PASS
Pass Without Objection
PASS
FAIL
Pass Without Objection
Pass Without Objection
Pass Without Objection
TIE
PASS



11:10 AM -- Ballot Analysis: Referendum C

Mike Mauer, Legislative Council Staff, thanked the members of the writing team for their work on the analysis. Mr. Mauer reviewed the final staff document, which was printed on blue sheets for purposes of the committee discussion, and reviewed the various parts of the analysis. He stated that the document includes a table on the state spending limit and refunds. A table reflecting estimated sales tax refunds under current law is also provided. The analysis includes three arguments for and three arguments against the referendum. Mr. Mauer provided an overview of each argument.


11:16 AM

Senator Anderson and Representative Hoppe asked questions regarding the timeline and process for processing and finishing the Legislative Council September forecast and how that may impact figures provided in the analysis. Mr. Mauer also noted that the analysis included a listing of the refund mechanisms. There were questions from committee members regarding the inclusion of updated figures in the ballot analysis booklet based on the September forecast.



11:21 AM

Henry Sobanet, Director, Office of State Planning and Budgeting, provided testimony on the comments he had provided on the draft analysis. His comments pertained to the calculation of foregone Taxpayer's Bill of Rights (TABOR) refunds used in argument #1 against the referendum. He expressed concern and reviewed suggestions for changes. President Fitz-Gerald asked Mr. Mauer to join Mr. Sobanet at the table and respond to Mr. Sobanet's comments. Mr. Mauer discussed the potential for making changes based on Mr. Sobanet's comments. Mr. Sobanet made additional comments about the potential for misinterpretation of what an expected refund would be if Referendum C does not pass. Representative Garcia and Representative May asked Mr. Mauer additional questions about the inclusion of business filers in the calculations provided. Representative Madden asked about referencing the appendix within the text of the narrative.



11:29 AM

Douglas Bruce, representing himself, testified on the ballot analysis and referenced his written comments as submitted to staff and provided to the committee. Mr. Bruce began reviewing his specific comments and said that he supported using September forecast numbers for purposes of updating the analysis. There was discussion of the time frame for mailing the booklet. He stated that the analysis should include at least five arguments on each side, or at least one additional argument on each side. Mr. Bruce walked the committee through his comments, which were specified by page and line number.


11:38 AM

Mr. Bruce provided specific suggestions for language changes in the text of the analysis, before commenting on the arguments. He requested changes to the analysis to reflect state spending, both in suggested changes to the text and through a new Figure 1. Additionally, he objected to use of the term "ratchet-down effect," because he feels it is a catch phrase. Mr. Bruce continued his comments and utilized a chart showing a history of state appropriations.


11:48 AM

Mr. Bruce's comments continued with a suggestion for language to accompany the chart on the state spending limit and refunds, reflected on page 2 of the final staff document. Mr. Bruce commented on language that money collected above the cap established beginning in 2011 will be refunded to taxpayers. He suggested stating that it may be refunded, except by future voter approval. He noted language regarding the state spending limit in light of declines in state revenue. He further stated that the analysis should include language to say that a new statute would repeal the existing constitutional spending limit. He testified on the description of the impact of Referendum D in the background section on page 3.



11:58 AM

Mr. Bruce's comments continued with a discussion regarding the staff's computations for refunds and the definition of a taxpayer used to calculate data. He said that the reader may be confused by figures on estimated sales tax refunds. In discussing the staff descriptions, he argued that opponents should be allowed to use and include descriptions of projected tax refunds if Referendum C does not pass. He returned to a discussion of potential future statutory changes, as well as the potential for increases in fees, fines, and other legislative changes if the referendum passes.


12:09 PM

Mr. Bruce had further comments on language describing the state's spending limits and continued to suggest changes to the arguments. He said that the opponents should be allowed to characterize the referendum's provisions as a tax increase and said that the opponents should be able to counter proponents' arguments by specifying other items in the state budget that could be cut. There was additional discussion about the characterization of Referendum C as a tax increase. In continuing his comments, Mr. Bruce suggested new language characterizing the state budget shortfall as "alleged" rather than "perceived" in argument #3 against the referendum. He said that the opponents should be able to argue that the referendum attempts to change constitutional provisions through a statute.


12:22 PM

Mr. Bruce's testimony reflected suggestions for showing or discussing total state spending over time, specifically in the period since the Taxpayer's Bill of Rights (TABOR) passed. He again advocated allowing at least one additional argument on each side. Mr. Bruce concluded his testimony with commentary on the fiscal analysis. He said that the fiscal impact analysis did not represent the potential for increases in fees, fines, and other non-tax revenue. His final suggestion pertained to the appendix, as he requested language to reflect that the refund mechanisms were established by and are subject to change by the General Assembly.



12:26 PM

Marty Neilson, representing herself, came to the table to comment on the final draft of the analysis. She discussed the description of the amount that the state could retain if the referendum passes. She indicated that Figure 3 on page 6 could be interpreted as a total increase in state spending. She commented on claims in the arguments for the referendum, including the potential for generating new jobs. Ms. Neilson also encouraged use of September forecast figures in the final analysis.



12:32 PM

The committee recessed.


02:06 PM

The meeting was called back to order.


02:06 PM

Senator Gordon discussed the comments he had submitted to the staff. He suggested adding "on services" or "for services" in certain portions of the analysis. Senator Teck reminded the committee that the spending could be on capital needs. Senator Anderson made further comments on adding the language and said that she feared that the additional language could be confusing to the reader. Senator Gordon said that he wanted the voters to understand that the additional spending that would be allowed would go toward services on which citizens rely. Representative May made further comments on Senator Gordon's suggestions.



02:11 PM

President Fitz-Gerald asked Representative Stengel to discuss the comments he had submitted to staff. Representative Stengel said that he feels the language in the analysis implies that the state has no options except to reduce funding. Senator Anderson asked for further clarification of his comments. Representative Stengel said that he objects to the language's implication that the provisions in referendums C and D are the state's only options to addressing the state budget. Senator Teck commented on Representative Stengel's characterization of options for securitizing tobacco settlements moneys or selling state buildings.


02:16 PM

Senator Tupa said that he supports giving leeway to each side in making arguments for and against the measure. Representative Garcia commented on specifying that certain areas such as higher education or the senior homestead exemption would be cut if Referendum C does not pass.


02:18 PM

Representative Garcia discussed his suggestion for amending the arguments against to strike language stating that Referendum C is a tax increase. He proposed eliminating the first sentence in argument #1 against the measure.


02:19 PM

There was discussion of the document to which the committee would consider changes. Mr. Mauer responded to questions about the changes reflected in the final staff document. Senator Fitz-Gerald moved that the committee adopt the final staff document (blue sheets) as the working document for the committee. The motion passed without objection. Speaker Romanoff asked questions about Figure 1 on the state spending limit and refunds. He raised concerns about clearly specifying that the bars in the graph represented state revenue. Senator Teck made suggestions for amending the graph.

BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 02:26:23 PM
MOVED:Teck
MOTION:Moved to amend Figure 1 to label the dotted line to include the words "Estimated" and "Without a Recession." and having the section labeled "Future TABOR Refunds" include "If Referendum C Fails." The committee continued to discuss the proposed language. Senator Teck renewed an amended motion to amend the label in Figure 1, strike "State Spending with Inflation Plus Population Growth Since 2001" and substitute "Estimated State Spending Limit Since 2001 Without a Recession". The motion passed without objection.
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
Butcher
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
Gordon
Groff
Hoppe
Johnson
Excused
Madden
May M.
McElhany
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
Teck
Tupa
Windels
Romanoff
Fitz-Gerald
Not Final YES: 0 NO: 0 EXC: 1 ABS: 3 FINAL ACTION: Pass Without Objection

2:30 PM

The committee discussed changing the label for "Future TABOR Refunds" in Table 1.


BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 02:31:42 PM
MOVED:Romanoff
MOTION:Moved to amend the label in Figure 1, strike "Future TABOR Refunds" and substitute "Estimated Future TABOR Refunds Without Referendum C". The motion passed without objection.
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
Butcher
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
Gordon
Groff
Hoppe
Johnson
Excused
Madden
May M.
McElhany
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
Teck
Tupa
Windels
Romanoff
Fitz-Gerald
Not Final YES: 0 NO: 0 EXC: 1 ABS: 2 FINAL ACTION: Pass Without Objection

2:34 PM

Senator Anderson discussed potential amendments to the third paragraph on page 4 of the final staff document, specifically language discussing the child care tax credit. Mr. Mauer further explained the language on page 4 and discussed the current child care refund mechanism and the permanent tax credit for child care expenses. Representative Madden suggested adding the explanation of the child care tax credit as an asterisk in the appendix. Mr. Mauer responded to questions about other credits impacted when there is a TABOR surplus. Representative May discussed the possibility of referencing the appendix. The committee continued to discuss the language regarding the child care tax credits.


02:44 PM

Representative Madden moved to amend page 4, delete lines 8-10 up through "INDIVIDUALS." The motion was withdrawn.


2:43 PM

Representative Butcher commented on the language that reflects the listings in the appendix. Representative Madden commented on the language in lines 8-10 of page 4. Mr. Mauer discussed amending line 8 to reference the appendix.


BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 02:48:41 PM
MOVED:Romanoff
MOTION:Moved to amend page 3, line 27, after "money", insert "AS LISTED IN THE REFERENDUM C APPENDIX." The motion passed without objection.
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
Butcher
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
Gordon
Groff
Hoppe
Johnson
Excused
Madden
May M.
McElhany
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
Teck
Tupa
Windels
Romanoff
Fitz-Gerald
Not Final YES: 0 NO: 0 EXC: 1 ABS: 2 FINAL ACTION: Pass Without Objection


2:49 PM

The committee discussed Speaker Romanoff's motion.


BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 02:50:41 PM
MOVED:Teck
MOTION:Moved to amend page 4, strike lines 8-10, through the word "'INDIVIDUALS.". The motion passed without objection.
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
Butcher
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
Gordon
Groff
Hoppe
Johnson
Excused
Madden
May M.
McElhany
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
Teck
Tupa
Windels
Romanoff
Fitz-Gerald
Not Final YES: 0 NO: 0 EXC: 1 ABS: 2 FINAL ACTION: Pass Without Objection

02:51 PM

Representative Garcia moved to amend page 4, line 15, strike the sentence, "The appendix contains more information on the refund methods." The motion was withdrawn.


2:51 PM

Representative Madden asked Mr. Mauer further questions about language pertaining to the child care tax credit. Mr. Mauer responded to questions regarding the impact of Referendum C on the refund mechanism and the tax credit for child care expenses. Speaker Romanoff asked further questions about the thresholds for the tax credits and about explanations of the tax credits. Mr. Mauer and Speaker Romanoff discussed different options for explaining the permanent child care tax credit. The committee discussed potential changes to the language in order to differentiate among the tax credits.


BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 03:02:09 PM
MOVED:Romanoff
MOTION:Moved to amend page 4, lines 19-21, strike the first sentence in the paragraph and substitute "Under current law, low-income families may be eligible to receive up to three tax credits for child care expenses. Passage of Referendum C would eliminate two of these three credits, without affecting the third, for at least five years." The motion passed on a 12-2-4 roll call vote.
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
Yes
Butcher
Yes
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
Yes
Gordon
Yes
Groff
Yes
Hoppe
Yes
Johnson
Excused
Madden
Yes
May M.
No
McElhany
Excused
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
No
Teck
Yes
Tupa
Yes
Windels
Yes
Romanoff
Yes
Fitz-Gerald
Yes
Final YES: 12 NO: 2 EXC: 2 ABS: 2 FINAL ACTION: PASS


BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 03:07:46 PM
MOVED:May M.
MOTION:Moved to include an estimated amount of the impact to the taxpayer regarding to the child care tax credits if Referendum C passes. Senator Anderson moved a friendly amendment to include the information in the appendix. Representative Stengel moved to amend the language on page 4 to reference the appendix. A request was made to severe the amendment. The first portion of the motion was to include the estimate of the impact as an asterisk in the appendix. The motion failed on a 7-7-4 roll call vote.
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
Yes
Butcher
No
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
No
Gordon
No
Groff
No
Hoppe
Yes
Johnson
Excused
Madden
No
May M.
Yes
McElhany
Excused
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
Yes
Teck
Yes
Tupa
No
Windels
No
Romanoff
Yes
Fitz-Gerald
Yes
Final YES: 7 NO: 7 EXC: 2 ABS: 2 FINAL ACTION: TIE


3:10 PM

Senator Anderson suggested adding any estimate as an asterisk. Representative Butcher asked Mr. Mauer for further clarification of the child care tax credits.

03:18 PM

Senator Windels moved to amend page 5, line 21, strike "CREDITS," and substitute "CREDITS. ALL REFUND MECHANISMS AVERAGE $1,105 PER TAXPAYER OVER THE NEXT FIVE YEARS.". Representative Madden commented on the language on page 5 and discussed amending page 5, line 20, strike "THEY" and substitute "SOME". Strike the rest of the paragraph and substitute "WHICH ARE LISTED IN THE REFERENDUM C APPENDIX." The committee discussed Senator Windels' motion, which she amended to read "THE AVERAGE FOR ALL REFUNDS, INCLUDING THE SALES TAX REFUNDS, IS $1,105 PER TAXPAYER OVER THE NEXT FIVE YEARS.". Representative Hoppe suggested amending Senator Windels' motion, page 5, line 20, striking "THEY" and substituting "SOME". This was accepted as a friendly amendment. The two sentences on lines 20-21 were severed as separate motions. Senator Windels withdrew her motion.


3:23 PM

Senator Teck and Representative Madden commented on inclusions and specifications of tax refunds or tax credits. The committee continued to discuss argument #1 against.


BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 03:36:23 PM
MOVED:Garcia
MOTION:Moved to amend page 5, lines 19-21, strike "ARE ALSO GIVING UP 15 OTHER REFUNDS" and substitute "THEY ARE ALSO VOTING TO SUSPEND 15 OTHER REFUNDS," and end the sentence with "CREDITS.". The motion passed without objection.
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
Butcher
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
Gordon
Groff
Hoppe
Johnson
Excused
Madden
May M.
McElhany
Excused
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
Teck
Tupa
Windels
Romanoff
Fitz-Gerald
Not Final YES: 0 NO: 0 EXC: 1 ABS: 2 FINAL ACTION: Pass Without Objection


03:40 PM

Representative Madden discussed defining what applies to a business and to an individual. The committee continued to discuss clarifying the language on page 5, lines 20-22.


BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 03:42:29 PM
MOVED:Madden
MOTION:Amend page 5, lines 19-22, "THE 15 OTHER REFUNDS ARE ITEMIZED IN THE REFERENDUM C APPENDIX, ALONG WITH AN APPROXIMATION OF THEIR VALUE.". Senator Anderson made a substitute motion (see below).
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
Butcher
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
Gordon
Groff
Hoppe
Johnson
Excused
Madden
May M.
McElhany
Excused
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
Teck
Tupa
Windels
Romanoff
Fitz-Gerald
Not Final YES: 0 NO: 0 EXC: 1 ABS: 2 FINAL ACTION: TIE

BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 03:47:16 PM
MOVED:Anderson
MOTION:Moved a substitute motion to Representative Madden's motion not to refer to the appendix, but rather to provide a number for what a business and an individual can expect in the text on page 5. Staff was authorized to provide appropriate numbers. The roll call vote on the motion was 11-3-4, and did not receive the requisite two-thirds vote of the committee to be considered approved.
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
Yes
Butcher
Yes
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
No
Gordon
Yes
Groff
Yes
Hoppe
Yes
Johnson
Excused
Madden
Yes
May M.
No
McElhany
Excused
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
No
Teck
Yes
Tupa
Yes
Windels
Yes
Romanoff
Yes
Fitz-Gerald
Yes
Not Final YES: 11 NO: 3 EXC: 2 ABS: 2 FINAL ACTION: FAIL - did not receive a 2/3 vote

BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 03:53:29 PM
MOVED:May M.
MOTION:Moved to amend page 5, lines 20-22. Strike everything after "CREDITS." and substitute "THE AVERAGE FOR ALL OF THE REFUNDS, INCLUDING THE SALES TAX REFUNDS, IS $1,105 PER TAXPAYER OVER THE NEXT FIVE YEARS." Speaker Romanoff suggested changes to the language. The committee voted on the amended language, "THE ESTIMATED FIVE-YEAR TOTAL FOR ALL REFUND MECHANISMS, INCLUDING THE SALES TAX REFUND, AVERAGES $1,105 PER TAXPAYER." The motion passed without objection.
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
Butcher
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
Gordon
Groff
Hoppe
Johnson
Excused
Madden
May M.
McElhany
Excused
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
Teck
Tupa
Windels
Romanoff
Fitz-Gerald
Not Final YES: 0 NO: 0 EXC: 1 ABS: 2 FINAL ACTION: Pass Without Objection


BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 03:56:27 PM
MOVED:Stengel
MOTION:Moved to amend page 5, lines 11-13, strike the sentence beginning "Without Referendum C,". The motion failed on a 2-12-4 roll call vote.
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
No
Butcher
No
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
No
Gordon
No
Groff
No
Hoppe
No
Johnson
Excused
Madden
No
May M.
Yes
McElhany
Excused
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
Yes
Teck
No
Tupa
No
Windels
No
Romanoff
No
Fitz-Gerald
No
Not Final YES: 2 NO: 12 EXC: 2 ABS: 2 FINAL ACTION: FAIL


04:00 PM

Speaker Romanoff discussed adding language to reflect the 6 percent limit on General Fund growth.
BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 04:01:25 PM
MOVED:Madden
MOTION:Representative Madden moved to amend page 1, line 19, at the end of paragraph add: "THE STATE WILL STILL BE SUBJECT TO THE CURRENT LIMIT ON GROWTH IN SPENDING.". Senator Anderson moved a friendly amendment to amend page 1, line 24, after "ANALYSIS.", add "THE GENERAL FUND IS STILL SUBJECT TO A LIMIT ON SPENDING; CASH FUNDS ARE NOT.". The committee discussed the Anderson amendment. The roll call vote on the motion was 10-4-4, and did not receive the requisite two-thirds vote of the committee to be considered approved.
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
Yes
Butcher
Yes
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
Yes
Gordon
Yes
Groff
No
Hoppe
Yes
Johnson
Excused
Madden
Yes
May M.
No
McElhany
Excused
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
No
Teck
Yes
Tupa
No
Windels
Yes
Romanoff
Yes
Fitz-Gerald
Yes
Not Final YES: 10 NO: 4 EXC: 2 ABS: 2 FINAL ACTION: FAIL - did not receive 2/3 vote
BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 04:14:55 PM
MOVED:Madden
MOTION:Moved to amend page 5, line 30, strike "because there is no limit on state spending". The motion was amended to strike "state spending" and substitute "these increases". The motion passed on a 13-1-4 roll call vote.
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
Yes
Butcher
Yes
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
Yes
Gordon
Yes
Groff
Yes
Hoppe
Yes
Johnson
Excused
Madden
Yes
May M.
Yes
McElhany
Excused
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
No
Teck
Yes
Tupa
Yes
Windels
Yes
Romanoff
Yes
Fitz-Gerald
Yes
Not Final YES: 13 NO: 1 EXC: 2 ABS: 2 FINAL ACTION: PASS


BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 04:18:21 PM
MOVED:Anderson
MOTION:Moved to adopt the final staff document as amended. The motion passed on a 13-1-4 roll call vote.
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
Yes
Butcher
Yes
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
Yes
Gordon
Yes
Groff
Yes
Hoppe
Yes
Johnson
Excused
Madden
Yes
May M.
Yes
McElhany
Excused
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
No
Teck
Yes
Tupa
Yes
Windels
Yes
Romanoff
Yes
Fitz-Gerald
Yes
Final YES: 13 NO: 1 EXC: 2 ABS: 2 FINAL ACTION: PASS







BILL:Ballot Analysis: Referendum C
TIME: 03:53:29 PM
MOVED:May M.
MOTION:Moved to amend page 5, lines 20-22. Strike everything after "CREDITS." and substitute "THE AVERAGE FOR ALL OF THE REFUNDS, INCLUDING THE SALES TAX REFUNDS, IS $1,105 PER TAXPAYER OVER THE NEXT FIVE YEARS." Speaker Romanoff suggested changes to the language. The committee voted on the amended language, "THE ESTIMATED FIVE-YEAR TOTAL FOR ALL REFUND MECHANISMS, INCLUDING THE SALES TAX REFUND, AVERAGES $1,105 PER TAXPAYER." The motion passed without objection.
SECONDED:
VOTE
Anderson
Butcher
Cadman
Absent
Garcia
Gordon
Groff
Hoppe
Johnson
Excused
Madden
May M.
McElhany
Excused
Paccione
Absent
Stengel
Teck
Tupa
Windels
Romanoff
Fitz-Gerald
Not Final YES: 0 NO: 0 EXC: 2 ABS: 2 FINAL ACTION: Pass Without Objection