Date: 02/11/2014

Final
BILL SUMMARY for HB14-1157

HOUSE COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY

Votes: View--> Action Taken:
Adopt amendment L.002 (Attachment D). The motion p
Refer House Bill 14-1157, as amended, to the Commi		Pass Without Objection
FAIL



01:46 PM -- HB14-1157

The committee was called to order. A quorum was present. Representative Kagan explained some procedures that would be observed by the committee during the hearing of House Bill 14-1157, concerning authorization for local policies to allow carrying of concealed handguns on public elementary and secondary school properties. Representative Humphrey, prime sponsor, presented the bill, explaining the effect of the bill. He also discussed the intent of the legislation, and potential objections to the bill.


01:52 PM

The following persons testified regarding House Bill 14-1157:

01:52 PM -- Mr. Michael Eaton and Mr. Robert Grossaint, representing Denver Public Schools, testified in opposition to the bill. Mr. Eaton outlined the district's opposition to the bill, noting that current law allows resource officers to carry handguns on a school campus. Mr. Eaton discussed trends in weapon usage during school shootings, and the potential results of allowing those without qualifications to carry firearms on a campus. Mr. Eaton discussed programs and protocols that address certain safety concerns. Mr. Grossaint discussed requirements for obtaining a concealed carry permit, and noted further options for providing for campus safety. Discussion ensued regarding a provision in the bill that allows local school boards to set training requirements for carrying a concealed weapon on campus.


02:02 PM

Discussion continued regarding a local school district's ability to set firearms training requirements that an employee must meet in order to carry a concealed firearm on campus. Mr. Eaton responded to questions regarding the number of resource officers who carry weapons on Denver campuses. Discussion followed regarding the permissive nature of the bill in terms of local control, and Denver Public Schools' opposition to the legislation in light of this permissiveness. Mr. Grossaint responded to questions regarding the level of training required of resource officers and others who carry firearms on Denver public school campuses. Discussion returned to the local control aspect of the bill, and provisions in current law that allow schools to hire resource officers to provide security services.


02:16 PM

Mr. Eaton responded to questions regarding his position as a school resource officer for Denver Public Schools. Discussion ensued regarding resources that would be available under the bill to qualify school district employees to carry concealed weapons on a school campus. Mr. Eaton and Mr. Grossaint responded to questions regarding the ability of school districts lacking dedicated funding for security officers to allow employees to qualify and carry concealed weapons on campuses. Discussion returned to the qualifications and prohibitions attendant to working as a resource officer under current law. Discussion followed regarding the ability of school districts to hire resource officers who also perform other duties for the district, such as teaching.


02:26 PM

Discussion returned to the requirements attendant to working as a school resource officer.

02:28 PM -- Mr. Joe Neville, representing Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, testified in support of House Bill 14-1157. Mr. Neville spoke in support of allowing school employees to assist in providing safety for students, and discussed public opinion in Colorado on the subject of concealed carry in public schools. Mr. Neville supported granting school districts domain over concealed carry in schools. Mr. Neville responded to questions about the statistics he cited on Colorado public opinion in this area.

02:33 PM -- Ms. Karina Sartiaguin, representing Together Colorado, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Sartiaguin related her experience as an unintended victim in a drive-by shooting outside a school, and explained that a teacher with a handgun would not have remedied the situation. She discussed the potential for a weapon being carried by a teacher to fall into the hands of others, and further expressed her thoughts subsequent to being a shooting victim.

02:37 PM -- Mr. Jeffrey Hare, and Mr. Jeff Lemons, representing Frontier Academy, testified in support of the bill. Mr. Hare discussed efforts on the part of his charter school to secure the ability of employees to carry concealed weapons on campus, and costs associated with hiring dedicated campus security officers. He suggested an amendment to current law to allow charter schools to hire armed resource officers, as shown in the bill, page 3, lines 23 through 27. Mr. Lemons also spoke in support of the amendment suggested by Mr. Hare, and discussed efforts on the part of his charter school to ensure the safety of the students. Mr. Lemons discussed instances where those carrying concealed weapons have interrupted shooting incidents, and his personal inability to use firearms for providing security. Discussion ensued regarding the amendment suggested by Mr. Hare.

02:47 PM -- Ms. Dawn Reinfeld, representing herself, testified in opposition to House Bill 14-1157. Ms. Reinfeld discussed public opinion of Colorado in light of mass shootings, and expressed doubt that armed teachers could provide safety to students. She suggested that tighter gun laws will provide greater safety to students than the bill.

02:50 PM -- Mr. Steve Reams, representing himself and the Weld County Sheriff's Office, and Sheriff Justin Smith, representing the Larimer County Sheriff's Office and County Sheriffs of Colorado, testified in support of the bill. Mr. Reams explained why allowing teachers to carry concealed weapons on school grounds will help to stem school gun violence. He also suggested that dispatching peace officers to school shooting scenes may be too late to ensure the safety of students. Sheriff Smith further discussed dispatch times during situations of violence, and the inefficacy of unarmed security officers. Sheriff Smith discussed certain impediments, apart from state law, preventing concealed carry of firearms by school employees. Sheriff Smith recommended building some specific training requirements into House Bill 14-1157. Sheriff Smith discussed the results of liberalizing concealed carry laws over the years. Discussion ensued regarding the administration of concealed carry laws in Colorado, and the number of persons authorized to carry firearms on campuses in Larimer and Weld Counties.


03:01 PM

Mr. Reams and Sheriff Smith responded to questions regarding the number of sheriffs' office personnel who serve as school resource officers in their respective counties. Discussion ensued regarding school boards' interpretation of existing law in the area of allowing teachers to serve as school resource officers, and the existence of safety issues in the counties that currently have concealed carry personnel in schools that would militate against the need for House Bill 14-1157.

03:07 PM -- Ms. Amie Baca-Oehlert, representing the Colorado Education Association, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Baca-Oehlert explained that the bill will not lead to a safer school environment, and discussed issues assessed by mental health professionals when working with students. Ms. Baca-Oehlert spoke in support of increased funding for counselors and mental health professionals to provide services to students in order to head off potential violence. Ms. Baca-Oehlert provided her opinion on allowing anyone to carry a concealed weapon on a school campus, and responded to questions regarding the function of trained safety personnel in school settings. She also discussed the protocols observed by teachers in ensuring safety for students. Ms. Baca-Oehlert responded to questions regarding her level of comfort with having a qualified teacher carry a concealed weapon on school grounds. Discussion ensued regarding the resources required for a teacher to maintain certification.

03:18 PM -- Dr. Jane Urschel, representing the Colorado Association of School Boards, testified in support of House Bill 14-1157. Dr. Urschel explained that police officers in rural school districts are unable to respond to school campus violence in a timely manner. She spoke in favor of local control in this instance. Ms. Brenda Smith, Kit Carson School Superintendent supporting the bill, discussed the rural nature of her school district, and the training that would be associated with carrying a concealed weapon on a school campus if the bill were to pass. Ms. Smith asked the committee to trust local committees to do what's best, and addressed previous testimony. Mr. Dennis Veal, Bennett Schools Superintendent also supporting the bill, discussed the level of support in his school district for the bill, and the long response times that would result during a school shooting situation in his district. Mr. Veal discussed training that would be required for concealed carry under the bill. Discussion ensued regarding the potential trends in concealed carry rates in schools by teachers were House Bill 14-1157 to pass. Discussion followed regarding resources that would be required to ensure proper training of school personnel who wished to carry concealed weapons under the bill.


03:29 PM

Dr. Urschel responded to questions regarding the use of school resource officers by school districts under current law.

03:32 PM -- Ms. Robyn Parker, representing herself, testified in opposition to House Bill 14-1157. Ms. Parker discussed the message sent by allowing guns in schools, and the need for funding for building maintenance and programs in her district.

03:35 PM -- Representative Humphrey read a letter from a supporter of the bill who was unable to be present at the hearing.

03:43 PM -- Ms. Julie Mamo, representing Grand Valley Peace and Justice, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Mamo discussed a working group organized in her community with the task of recommending solutions for potential school violence, and the working group's position on arming teachers. She discussed the position of the people of Mesa County on allowing teachers to carry firearms, and discussed the message that would be sent by allowing such arming of teachers. Ms. Mamo responded to questions regarding the ability of her school board to make decisions on teacher armament under the bill.

03:49 PM -- Mr. Patrick Neville, representing himself, testified in support of House Bill 14-1157. Mr. Neville discussed the local control aspect of the bill, and related his experience during the Columbine High School shooting in 1999. Mr. Neville explained that he trusted his child's teacher in the area of safety.

03:52 PM -- Ms. Karen Mortimer, representing Together Colorado, testified in opposition to the bill. Committee members received copies of Ms. Mortimer's testimony (Attachment A). She discussed her capacity as a parent volunteer in an elementary school, and expressed discomfort with the idea of guns being present in the school. She discussed the message that having firearms in the school would send to the students. Ms. Mortimer responded to a question about school resource officers at the school where she volunteers.

14HseJud0211AttachA (2).pdf14HseJud0211AttachA (2).pdf

03:56 PM -- Mr. Gene Bruhn, representing himself, testified in support of the bill. Mr. Bruhn discussed the potential for the bill to clarify state law regarding the ability of school districts to retain armed personnel. Mr. Bruhn discussed the speed with which a determined, armed individual may shoot persons in a school, and the utility of having an armed individual to counter such an effort. He also discussed the exercise of concealed carry in his church.

04:00 PM -- Ms. Gloria Berreth, representing herself, testified in opposition to House Bill 14-1157. Ms. Berreth discussed the opinion of her children with respect to teachers carrying weapons in school, and the impression that such carrying will have on students. She explained that educating children properly can help to avoid violent situations.

04:04 PM -- Mr. Jeff McGovern, representing himself, testified in support of House Bill 14-1157. Mr. McGovern spoke in support of the local control aspect of the bill, and discussed the number of concealed carry permits in Colorado. Mr. McGovern also discussed the rate of accident associated with concealed carry. He discussed law enforcement support for concealed carry. Discussion ensued regarding differing ideas on arming school personnel among school districts.

04:08 PM -- Ms. Kathy Slaughter, representing herself, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Slaughter explained that students would know if a teacher was carrying a sidearm, and considered the potential for a weapon to fall into the hands of a student. She recounted her experiences as a teacher, and the potential result of a firearm being present in certain violent situations to which she was witness. Ms. Laura Davis, representing herself, discussed the teaching of nonviolence to young students, and the message that would be sent by teachers carrying firearms. She proposed security measures that could be undertaken by schools.

04:14 PM -- Mr. Andrew Lucas, representing himself, testified in support of the bill. Mr. Lucas discussed the ability of shooters to create havoc in gun-free zones, and cited statistics on school shootings in Utah, where concealed carry is more freely allowed. He spoke in support of the local control aspect of the bill.

04:18 PM -- Mr. Robert Edmiston, representing the Firearms Coalition of Colorado, testified in support of the bill. Committee members received a fact sheet on the deterrent effect of armed citizens on criminal behavior (Attachment B). Mr. Edmiston discussed the fact pattern of a typical school shooting, and explained how an armed teacher may protect students in such a situation. He discussed certain jurisdictions where firearms carrying is common but school shootings are low.

14HseJud0211AttachB (2).pdf14HseJud0211AttachB (2).pdf

04:22 PM -- Ms. Kim Blair, representing herself, testified in opposition to House Bill 14-1157. Ms. Blair discussed her experiences as a survivor of the Columbine High School shooting, and detailed certain measures that can be taken to provide for school security. Ms. Blair discussed costs associated with training teachers to properly carry a firearm. She discussed firearms as a symbol.

04:26 PM -- Ms. Josie Brady, representing herself, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Brady discussed training undertaken by first responders, and the positions of her teachers on concealed carry of firearms. She explained that the carrying of guns by teachers would dissuade her from attending school. Ms. Brady responded to questions regarding the school she attends.

04:29 PM -- Ms. Rita Marquez, representing Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, testified in opposition to the bill. She said that guns on campus would undermine educational pursuits.

04:32 PM -- Mr. Dylan Salzman, representing himself, testified in opposition to the bill. Mr. Salzman, a junior at East High School, stated that guns in school would increase the probability of violence in an institution that should be a safe haven for youth.

04:34 PM -- Mr. Evan Segal, representing himself, testified in opposition to the bill. Mr. Segal discussed his work as a constitutional scholar on the Second Amendment. He stated that many of his teachers stated they would quit teaching if this legislation passed. Mr. Segal responded to questions from the committee.

04:39 PM -- Mr. Edward Villacres, representing himself, testified in opposition to the bill. He discussed his experiences in the military. He explained that rigorous requirements, safety measures, and psychological preparation are required to properly carry a firearm. Mr. Villacres responded to questions regarding his opinion on the sufficiency of training for a concealed carry permit holder to be properly equipped to provide a public safety role in a school setting.

04:45 PM -- Ms. Debby Kaller, representing herself, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Kaller discussed her experiences as a volunteer in a local school, and the prevalence of school shootings in the United States. She explained that most teachers do not want to carry weapons in school, and discussed the potential for a weapon carried by a teacher to fall into the hands of someone else. Ms. Kaller quoted Mr. Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice-President of the National Rifle Association. Mr. Michael McGuire, representing himself, discussed the dangers that may be associated with the introduction of handguns in the school setting by teacher concealed carry. Mr. McGuire detailed steps that may be taken to provide a more secure school environment. Mr. McGuire responded to questions regarding the lack of resources in certain school districts to pay for school resource officers.

04:53 PM -- Ms. JoAnn Fujioka, representing the Colorado Parent Teacher Association, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Fujioka discussed her organization's mission to assist in providing a safe and productive environment to students, and explained why allowing teachers to carry weapons presents a safety concern. Ms. Fujioka discussed the impression left with students by the presence of firearms.

04:57 PM -- Mr. Phil Barber, representing Colorado Ceasefire, testified in opposition to House Bill 14-1157. Mr. Barber discussed the firearm fatality rate in the United States, and explained that the proliferation of guns results in more violence. He provided potential scenarios that may unfold if teachers are carrying firearms.

05:01 PM -- Mr. Miguel Asturias, representing himself, testified in opposition to the bill. Mr. Asturias explained that having more firearms on campus would result in increased chances for a shooting, particularly if a firearm were to fall into the hands of a student. He spoke in support of funding programs that counter violence.

05:03 PM -- Mr. Josef Gross, representing himself, testified in opposition to the bill. Mr. Gross discussed the implications of having armed teachers on school campuses, including the potential for a weapon carried by a teacher to fall into the hands of a student in a violent situation. Mr. Gross responded to questions regarding the curriculum being studied at his high school, and how he was moved to testify before the committee.

05:08 PM -- Ms. Madelaine Schmidt, representing herself, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Schmidt explained that she would not feel safer if teachers were to carry firearms, and discussed the proper role of teachers. She discussed the impact of the presence of firearms on the school environment.

05:10 PM -- Ms. Katie Lyles, representing herself, testified in opposition to House Bill 14-1157. Ms. Lyles discussed the proper role of teachers, and explained that she would be terrified if firearms were allowed in school. Ms. Lyles discussed her experiences as a survivor of the Columbine High School shooting, and discussed measures that may be taken to improve school safety. She discussed the message that would be sent to students if teachers were to carry firearms.

05:13 PM -- Mr. Tom Mauser, representing himself, testified in opposition to the bill. Mr. Mauser provided his experience as the father of a student killed during the Columbine High School shooting, and provided alternatives to allowing teachers to be armed. He questioned the use of resources to train teachers on the use of firearms, and discussed certain practical considerations presented by allowing teachers to carry firearms in school.

05:17 PM -- Mr. Aubrey Vial, representing himself, testified in opposition to the bill. He explained why he feels allowing teachers to carry firearms would be foolish. Mr. Vial discussed the potential impact of the presence of firearms in school on the school environment. Mr. Vial responded to questions regarding how he and his fellow students became involved in the legislative process.

05:20 PM -- Mr. John Lamb, representing himself, testified in opposition to the bill. Mr. Lamb explained that the bill would add dangers to the classroom and increase teacher workload, and would disturb the academic environment. Mr. Lamb cited statistics about gun ownership, and provided alternatives for increasing campus safety and security. Mr. Lamb responded to questions regarding statistics or studies in support of his assertions. Discussion ensued regarding the time that teachers would need to commit to proper training for the use of firearms under the bill. Discussion followed regarding polls undertaken of teachers in Colorado on the issue of allowing concealed carry by teachers in schools.

05:30 PM -- Ms. Ryan Bronson, representing herself, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Bronson discussed the role of teachers, and explained that safety would be compromised by having teachers with guns in the classroom. She discussed the fear she would experience if they were to carry firearms on campus.

05:34 PM -- Ms. Amy Muller, representing Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Muller discussed actions taken by the legislature in the area of firearms, and the number of school shootings that have taken place recently. Ms. Muller cited studies on the carrying of guns and the rate of gun violence, and discussed the potential for a firearm to not be secured by a person licensed to conceal carry.

05:38 PM -- Ms. Mary Ann Larsen, representing herself, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Larsen discussed her experiences in trying to intervene in fights as a teacher. She discussed the firearms training that peace officers must undergo, and questioned where weapons carried by teachers would be stored. Ms. Larsen discussed the issue of liability if teachers were allowed to carry firearms in schools, and school budgets. Discussion ensued regarding which party would cover liability insurance associated with concealed carry on school grounds.

05:45 PM -- Ms. Eileen McCarron, representing Colorado Ceasefire, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. McCarron discussed the environment that may be created by allowing teachers to carry concealed weapons in school, and the potential for a firearm to fall into the hands of a student. She discussed the use of guns by those who are "comfortable" with using firearms. Ms. McCarron addressed comments from the committee.

05:50 PM -- Ms. Esther Macalady, representing herself, testified in opposition to House Bill 14-1157. Ms. Macalady discussed the workload of teachers, and the position of most teachers on allowing teachers to carry concealed weapons on school campuses. Ms. Macalady discussed the lack of funding for social work professionals in schools, and spoke in support of a balanced approach to school safety. Ms. Macalady discussed opposition to the bill by certain bodies.

05:55 PM -- Ms. Beverly Bunker, representing herself and Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Bunker discussed the lack of rules contained in the bill, and the potential fiscal impact of the legislation. Ms. Bunker discussed the nation's opinion of Colorado as a violent place, and the resulting impact on the economy. Discussion ensued regarding the timeline of a recent school shooting at Arapahoe High School. Discussion followed regarding the broadness of House Bill 14-1157 in the area of oversight. Ms. Bunker responded to discussion concerning the Arapahoe High School shooting.

06:04 PM -- Ms. Laurie Langley, representing Colorado Ceasefire, testified in opposition to the bill. She read a statement from Ms. Jane Dougherty, whose sister was killed in a school shooting.

06:08 PM -- Mr. Ken Toltz, representing Safe Campus Colorado, testified in opposition to the bill. He discussed the work of his organization, and cited statistics on the rate of gun violence perpetrated by the holders of concealed carry permits in the United States.

06:12 PM -- Ms. Jennifer Steuck, representing Colorado Ceasefire, testified in opposition to House Bill 14-1157. Ms. Steuck discussed the fear that gun violence engenders, and the importance of prevention to countering violence. She explained that a concealed weapon would not have helped during the Columbine High School shooting, and such weapons do not serve as a deterrent. She discussed the risk posed by the presence of weapons in a school environment, as well as the environment of fear created by the existence of weapons.

06:16 PM -- Ms. Jacqui Shumway, representing herself, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Shumway discussed reactions to threats by those who carry weapons, and the need for counselors in schools.

06:20 PM -- Ms. Danica Larson, representing herself, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Larson cited studies that show that the presence of a firearm presents an increased risk of a violent episode, and discussed the reasons that such violence may occur when firearms are present.

06:23 PM -- Ms. Christine Lundgren, representing Colorado Ceasefire and Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, testified in opposition to House Bill 14-1157. She discussed the position of the teachers she has encountered on the issue of concealed carry on school grounds. Ms. Lundgren discussed the liability insurance rates associated with the passage of concealed carry laws for teachers in Kansas, and the potential outcomes that may result if teachers are allowed to concealed carry. Ms. Lundgren discussed the scientific literature on concealed carry in schools. Discussion ensued regarding the liability insurance issue.

06:29 PM -- Mr. Augustine DeArmond, representing Together Colorado, testified in opposition to the bill. Mr. DeArmond discussed his experiences as a student in a Los Angeles school, where a security guard was overpowered and disarmed by students.

06:31 PM -- Ms. Princess Mack, representing Together Colorado, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Mack discussed her experiences with guns during childhood when she resided on a military base, and compared the firearms training required of military members to that of teachers. Ms. Mack considered the balancing that is required to create a safe environment in schools, and explained how such an environment may be created.

06:36 PM -- Mr. Richard Kunckel, representing himself, testified in support of the bill. Mr. Kunckel discussed the need to make a change to school safety precautions in light of recent school shootings, and the targeting of the unarmed by those bent on violence. Mr. Kunckel discussed weapons as tools. Mr. Kunckel responded to questions regarding the reasons that perpetrators of gun violence target certain environments, and current state law that allows schools to hire armed security officers. Discussion ensued regarding the requirements of this state law, found at Section 18-12-214 (3)(b), C.R.S.

06:44 PM -- Ms. Florine King, representing herself, testified in opposition to House Bill 14-1157. Ms. King explained that teachers should focus on teaching, and discussed changes that have taken place in recent decades that have undermined the mission of schools. Ms. King discussed her experiences with the educational system, and changes to the economic landscape. Ms. King addressed the issue of bigotry as it relates to school violence and economics. Discussion ensued regarding racial bias in the perpetration of violence by armed authorities.

06:56 PM -- Ms. Debbie Lammers, St. Vrain Valley Board of Education member, testified in opposition to the bill. Ms. Lammers explained that parents of students have expressed to her that they would want their children removed from classrooms where firearms are present, and discussed efforts undertaken by certain school districts to enhance school security. Ms. Lammers explained that issues pertinent to educational instruction are the purview of school boards, and firearms would become the undue focus of school boards were the bill to pass.


07:01 PM

Committee members received a packet of letters expressing opposition to House Bill 14-1157 (Attachment C). Representative Gardner explained the effect of amendment L.002 (Attachment D). Discussion ensued regarding the effect of the amendment, and the merits of the amendment. Representative Gardner discussed the potential reaction by charter schools if they are allowed to contract for security officers who carry concealed handguns.

14HseJud0211AttachC.pdf14HseJud0211AttachC.pdf14HseJud0211AttachD.pdf14HseJud0211AttachD.pdf

07:09 PM

The committee recessed.


07:12 PM

The committee returned to order. Various committee members discussed the merits of the amendment, and the issue addressed by the amendment. Discussion ensued regarding the potential for allowing section 4 of the bill to go forward as separate legislation.


07:22 PM

Discussion continued regarding the potential for section 4 of House Bill 14-1157 to go forward as separate legislation.
BILL:HB14-1157
TIME: 07:02:49 PM
MOVED:Gardner
MOTION:Adopt amendment L.002 (Attachment D). The motion passed without objection.
SECONDED:Murray
VOTE
Buckner
Court
Gardner
Lawrence
McLachlan
Murray
Pettersen
Salazar
Waller
Lee
Kagan
YES: 0 NO: 0 EXC: 0 ABS: 0 FINAL ACTION: Pass Without Objection


07:29 PM

Representative Humphrey provided closing remarks in support of House Bill 14-1157, as amended. Committee members provided their positions on the bill as amended.
BILL:HB14-1157
TIME: 07:29:17 PM
MOVED:Gardner
MOTION:Refer House Bill 14-1157, as amended, to the Committee of the Whole. The motion failed on a vote of 4-7.
SECONDED:Lawrence
VOTE
Buckner
No
Court
No
Gardner
Yes
Lawrence
Yes
McLachlan
No
Murray
Yes
Pettersen
No
Salazar
No
Waller
Yes
Lee
No
Kagan
No
YES: 4 NO: 7 EXC: 0 ABS: 0 FINAL ACTION: FAIL



07:45 PM

The committee adjourned.