Final
STAFF SUMMARY OF MEETING

COMMITTEE ON ETHICS COMMITTEE

Date:03/27/2013
ATTENDANCE
Time:07:34 AM to 09:01 AM
Pabon
X
Scheffel
X
Place:SCR 352
Aguilar
X
This Meeting was called to order by
Senator Aguilar
This Report was prepared by
Elizabeth Burger
X = Present, E = Excused, A = Absent, * = Present after roll call
Bills Addressed: Action Taken:
Witness TestimonyWitness Testimony and/or Committee Discussion Only


07:34 AM -- Witness Testimony

Senator Aguilar called the committee to order. A notebook of information regarding the complaint was provided to the members of the committee. The notebook contains materials that were distributed to the committee prior to the hearing and that were made available at the hearing. A copy of the notebook may be viewed in the offices of Legislative Council Staff, State Capitol Building, Room 029. Senator Aguilar explained that the committee had been provided a list of witnesses for the day's hearing and noted that certain witnesses would not be present at the hearing, including Mr. Daniel Carey, Mr. Dan Cartin, and Minority Leader Waller. Senator Scheffel asked Jennifer Gilroy with the Office of Legislative Legal Services (OLLS) to discuss the constitutionality of Joint Rule 36.

07:36 AM

Jennifer Gilroy, OLLS, came to the table and explained that the OLLS's assertion is that the rule was promulgated under the General Assembly's authority and is constitutional, and noted that Mr. Neville could challenge its constitutionality. She discussed the standards for determining constitutionality of statutes and rules, and why in her opinion the rule meets the standards. She recommended that the committee proceed with its investigatory work. Representative Pabon discussed Mr. Carey's absence from the hearing and stated that the committee should reserve the right to call him as a witness. Representative Pabon further noted that the committee should excuse Mr. Cartin from testifying as he submitted a letter to the committee explaining why he is not an appropriate witness. He clarified that Minority Leader Waller was not present at the hearing, but may submit a statement in writing at a later date. Senator Aguilar clarified that she explained to Mr. Carey that the committee reserved the right to call him for further testimony, if necessary.


07:39 AM

Sergeant Darce Weil, Colorado State Patrol, came to the table and responded to questions from the committee regarding the incident between Representative Gerou and Mr. Joe Neville on February 15, 2013. He explained he was the acting supervisor for the State Patrol on that date and that he was monitoring radio traffic about the incident. He explained that, after the incident, he met with Representative Gerou to take her statement, and then met with Mr. Neville later in the trooper room in the basement. Sergeant Weil stated that Mr. Neville stated that he wanted to file a police report regarding the incident because Representative Gerou had poked him in the chest, and Sergeant Weil advised him that the Denver Police Department could take the report. Sergeant Weil clarified that for these types of incidents, written reports are not filed by the State Patrol and stated that he did not witness the actual incident. Sergeant Weil recounted the statement that Representative Gerou gave him regarding the incident explaining that she stated that Mr. Neville had threatened her and that the threat was related to mailers. Representative Pabon asked about Representative Gerou's demeanor during her interview with Sergeant Weil, and Sergent Weil said her demeanor was bothered and upset, but calm. Senator Scheffel asked whether there was any indication why the mailers would be sent, and Sergent Weil said Representative Gerou explained to him what it meant to send mailers into her district. Sergent Weil stated that his concern was whether the threat made by Mr. Neville was something he could act on, and when he asked Representative Gerou whether the threat was a physical threat, he was assured it was not. Sergent Weil further explained that it was clear that Mr. Neville believed in his mind that he had been physically threatened. Sergent Weil explained that the Denver Police Department was called, and Mr. Neville went back outside with a state trooper until the police arrived. He explained that Mr. Neville was undecided about whether to file a report with the police department after they were initially called.

07:48 AM

Representative Gerou came to the table and identified herself and gave her statement of facts. Representative Gerou explained that Minority Leader Waller called her in early January and asked if she was voting "no" on the gun legislation. She asked him that she was not intending to support the bills and asked who he had heard that information from, and he told her that Mr. Daniel Carey, the lobbyist for the National Rifle Association, had told him. About a week after that phone call, she saw Mr. Carey and asked him why he was concerned about her positions on the gun legislation, and Mr. Carey assured her that he knew her position and was not concerned. On February 5, Representative Gerou was approached by a constituent who explained he saw a Facebook ad about her positions on the gun legislation. On February 14, the House Appropriations Committee heard two gun bills, and she noted that she argued and voted against both. On the evening on February 14, she received another call from Minority Leader Waller who explained that he was again hearing rumors that she would vote in favor of the gun bills, and she explained to him that she had voted against the bills in the House Appropriations Committee. Minority Leader Waller explained that he had also heard this information from Daniel Carey. On February 15, she asked Mr. Carey again why he was telling Representative Waller that she was going to vote for the gun legislation and he again said that he did not know where the misinformation was coming from. Representative Gerou explained that on February 15, she started getting e-mails and calls from constituents concerned about her positions on the gun bills and she determined that the misinformation seemed to be coming from Rocky Mountain Gun Owners (RMGO). She asked Mr. Carey if Dudley Brown with RMGO was responsible for the rumors and Mr. Carey said yes. She asked Mr. Carey if Mr. Brown was in the Capitol and Mr. Carey said that Mr. Brown was not, but his lobbyist was. Representative Gerou explained that she was very angry at that point, and asked Mr. Carey to deliver message to the lobbyist. She stated that the message was that her constituents were being scared by misinformation and to stop scaring her constituents. She also repeated an explicit statement that she asked Mr. Carey to tell the lobbyist. Mr. Carey stated that he wasn't comfortable delivering the message, but would ask the lobbyist to send a card in and she could deliver message herself. A short time later, Mr. Neville sent the card in to Representative Gerou and she stepped into the lobby of the House Chambers to see him. Representative Gerou explained that she told Mr. Neville she was receiving messages from constituents and to stop lying and scaring her constituents. She stated that she felt like he had no respect for her positions and her constituents. Representative Gerou repeated the explicit statement she made to Mr. Neville and stated that he responded that "you've just earned yourself another round of mailers in your district for a primary." Representative Gerou explained that she didn't know if he previously had sent mailers into her district. She further explained that after he made that statement, she placed her hand on right upper arm and


asked him to come with her. She asked the House Sergeant-At-Arms to escort Mr. Neville from the building because he threatened her. Later, a member of the State Patrol interviewed her about nature of threat, and she assured him that the threat was political and not physical. Representative Gerou explained that the State Patrol told her at that time that Mr. Neville was waiting for the Denver Police Department because he wanted to file a harassment complaint. She then met with Dan Cartin, Director of the Office of Legislative Legal Services, regarding the incident, and he confirmed that it was appropriate for Mr. Neville to enter building. She asked that Mr. Neville be shown the ethics rules and Chief Sergeant-At-Arms John Wallin had a copy of the rules and she highlighted the relevant rule so Mr. Wallin could reference it. She asked that Mr. Wallin show the rule to Mr. Neville. She later heard that Mr. Neville decided not to file charges against her and that he wished to re-enter the Capitol, and that she was handed a card and told that Mr. Neville wished to apologize. Representative Gerou explained that she hadn't talked to Mr. Neville since the incident in the lobby of the House Chambers. She stated that she later received call from Mr. Mitchell asking if he could write a shared statement of facts, which she wasn't comfortable doing. She later was told that Mr. Carey overheard the conversation between her and Mr. Neville in the House Chamber lobby and that Ms. Totsy Reece observed the conversation.

08:03 AM

She responded to questions from Senator Scheffel regarding her statement that Mr. Neville did not have respect for her position, explaining that she felt he had no respect for her position on the gun bills and that she wasn't clear why RMGO was confused about her position on the bills. Senator Scheffel clarified that the threat made by Mr. Neville wasn't physical and was related to the mailers, and noted that her vote on the gun legislation never changed. Representative Gerou stated she wasn't sure if it was necessary for her vote to have changed to satisfy the provisions of Joint Rule 36. She clarified that she placed her hand on Mr. Neville's upper arm, but did not poke him in his upper chest. Representative Pabon asked whether she believed the threat of mailers was intended to changer her vote on the bills. She clarified that she had never met Mr. Brown or Mr. Neville prior to the incident on February 15, 2013. She described her history with Mr. Brown related to her campaign six years ago, and stated she didn't know what the intent of the mailers would be and she doesn't know whether RMGO has ever sent mailers in her district before. Representative Pabon questioned whether the threat of mailers was intended to alter her vote on the gun bills or was in response to Representative Gerou's explicit comment to Mr. Neville. She said she felt that there was an aspect of bullying going on and wasn't as concerned about the mailers as she was about her belief that he was scaring her constituents. She stated that she didn't feel physically threatened, but that Mr. Neville was wrong to threaten the mailers in that place and time and doing so was a violation of ethics rules. Senator Aguilar asked if RMGO had previously tried to recruit a candidate to run in a primary against Representative Gerou, and she responded that she did not know, and she wasn't worried about a potential primary.

08:15 AM

Mr. Joseph Neville came to the table and identified himself and recounted the events of the morning of February 15. He described his activities prior to the encounter with Representative Gerou and explained that Mr. Carey told him that Representative Gerou wanted to see him and she was angry. He sent a card into Representative Gerou on the House Floor, and when she appeared, the lobby was rather full, so he took a step forward to hear, and she directed him over to the side. He repeated Representative Gerou's explicit comment and her other comments to him on that morning. He stated that he replied "You aren't helping yourself and you've just earned another round of mail." He stated Representative Gerou then grabbed him by the arm and the Sergeant-At-Arms grabbed him as well, and he felt threatened and wasn't resisting. Mr. Neville explained that the State Patrol escorted him out of the building, and that he was later allowed back into the building. He said he was upset, heated, and felt threatened and was contemplating filing charges, but that after a few minutes he calmed down when he was assured that his job wouldn't be threatened. He stated that he didn't fell threatened by Representative Gerou, but that it was a heated morning, and the legislation was hotly contested. He described his comment about the mailers as a reaction to her demeanor and reiterated that he was not physically violent toward Representative Gerou. He explained why RMGO would send mailers into Representative Gerou's district, stating she hasn't completed surveys for RMGO and she voted for House Bill 13-1043 which RMGO was opposing and that was a red flag for the organization.



08:21 AM

Representative Pabon asked if RMGO had been putting out mailers in Representative Gerou's district. He responded that they had and described the lobbying RMGO had done on the issue. He noted that the organization was sending mailers throughout the state and also targeting the Senate district which overlaps with Representative Gerou's district. Representative Pabon asked if Mr. Neville could provide the committee with a copy of the mailers and asked if the mailers referenced the bills being debated. Representative Pabon and Mr. Neville continued to discuss the content of the mailers and to whom the mailers were being sent. Mr. Neville stated that his statement regarding mailers was a reaction to her demeanor and not a political strategy, and noted that sending another round of mail wouldn't have made a difference regarding on her votes on that day. Senator Scheffel asked if RMGO believed that Representative Gerou's vote was in doubt, and Mr. Neville responded that he did not know, but she wasn't a target for his lobbying efforts that day. Senator Scheffel asked if his statement about sending another round of mailers was intended to influence her vote on that day and Mr. Neville responded that the comment was a reaction to her demeanor.

08:30 AM

The committee took a recess.

08:41 AM

Senator Aguilar announced that committee next meet on Wednesday, April 3, at 7:30 am in Senate Committee Room 352. The committee took a recess.

08:42 AM

Committee came back to order. Senator Scheffel asked Mr. Neville if another round of mailers was ever sent into Representative Gerou's district, and Mr. Neville responded that mailers were not sent. Senator Scheffel and Mr. Neville discussed the incident and Mr. Neville's reaction to Representative Gerou's demeanor and his goals in making the statement regarding the mailers. Mr. Neville noted that he believed that he didn't do anything wrong and that it was unfair for him to be investigated under the ethics rules. Representative Pabon asked why Mr. Neville didn't file charges against Representative Gerou, and Mr. Neville stated that he believed the incident was over and he had decided to move on. Senator Aguilar asked if RMGO was telling people that Representative Gerou was going to vote no on the gun legislation and Mr. Neville noted that a number of organizations were putting out mailers and ads on the issue. Representative Pabon and Mr. Neville continued to discuss the mailers and RMGO's lobbying strategy. Mr. Neville noted again that Representative Gerou asked to see him on morning of the incident.

08:59 AM

Senator Aguilar requested that the witnesses attend the committee hearing on April 3 at which time the committee would continue witness interviews. Representative Pabon asked Mr. Neville to provide copies of mailers that had been sent into Representative Gerou's district and Senator Aguilar also asked him to provide copies of any Facebook ads.

09:01 AM

The committee adjourned.