Final
STAFF SUMMARY OF MEETING

COMMITTEE ON ETHICS COMMITTEE

Date:04/03/2013
ATTENDANCE
Time:07:37 AM to 09:04 AM
Pabon
X
Scheffel
X
Place:SCR 352
Aguilar
X
This Meeting was called to order by
Senator Aguilar
This Report was prepared by
Elizabeth Burger
X = Present, E = Excused, A = Absent, * = Present after roll call
Bills Addressed: Action Taken:
Witness TestimonyWitness Testimony and/or Committee Discussion Only

07:37 AM -- Witness Testimony

Senator Aguilar called the committee to order. The committee received a notebook of materials containing documents specific to this and prior hearings of the committee. A copy of the notebook can be viewed in the Offices of Legislative Council, State Capitol Building, Room 029. Representative Pabon asked if the committee had received a statement from Mr. Daniel Carey, who had been called to be a witness before the committee, and Senator Aguilar clarified that the committee had not.

07:37 AM

Jon Judson, Sergeant-at-Arms for the House of Representatives, came to the table and described his recollection of the events of February 15, 2013. He explained that he was seated in the House chambers lobby to pass cards into the chamber. At around 11:03 a.m., Representative Gerou was speaking to gentleman in the House chambers lobby, and she asked Mr. Judson to remove the man because he threatened her. Mr. Judson escorted the man from the lobby and noted that he came without resistance. Mr. Judson brought the man to the elevator where they encountered former State Senator Tim Neville. The gentleman, who Mr. Judson later identified as Mr. Joe Neville, asked if he could get his things which were in Representative Everett's office and also asked how he could file a complaint against a state representative. Mr. Judson delivered Mr. Joe Neville to the South basement entrance of the Capitol building at which point Trooper Hodge with the Colorado State Patrol escorted the man from the building. Mr. Judson returned to the elevators and encountered Mr. Tim Neville, and noted that Mr. Tim Neville made comments regarding Representative Gerou. Mr. Judson responded that he was just doing what he was asked to do, and returned to his post in the House chambers lobby. Mr. Judson noted that the entire incident lasted about seven or eight minutes. He later advised Chief Sergeant-At-Arms John Wallin of the incident, who told him to write a statement regarding his recollection of the events. A copy of this statement is included in the notebooks that were distributed to the committee members. Mr. Judson responded to questions from Representative Pabon about how many people were present in the House chambers lobby at the time of the incident. He explained that he didn't observe Mr. Neville and Representative Gerou before Representative Gerou asked to have Mr. Neville removed.


07:44 AM

Chief House Sergeant-At-Arms John Wallin came to the table and described his recollection of the events of February 15, 2013. He explained that he was stationed inside the House Chamber and was informed that Mr. Judson had escorted somebody out of the building. Mr. Wallin stationed another sergeant-at-arms outside of the House chambers door. When Mr. Judson returned, Mr. Wallin asked him to write down everything that had happened. Subsequently, a state trooper came up to interview Representative Gerou, and Mr. Wallin was instructed to find the Joint Rule regarding ethics violations of lobbyists and show it to Mr. Neville when he returned to the Capitol. On a later day, he showed Mr. Neville the relevant rule. In response to a question from the committee, Mr. Wallin stated that he did not witness the incident between Representative Gerou and Mr. Neville. He further responded to questions regarding how often similar incidents have occurred in the past.

07:48 AM

Trooper Chad Hayes, came to the table and described his recollection of the events of February 15, 2013. He explained that he heard that Trooper Steve Hodge was escorting a man out of the building and the man identified himself as Mr. Neville. He noted that Mr. Neville asked how to file a complaint against Representative Gerou because she was poking him on the chest. Trooper Hayes explained that Sergeant Weil with the Colorado State Patrol then went up to the House Chamber to make contact with the House Sergeants-at-Arms. Sergeant Weil advised Mr. Neville that he was the subject of a complaint by a legislator and needed to leave the building. Trooper Hayes escorted Mr. Neville out of the building and gave him his card in case Mr. Neville wanted Trooper Hayes to call the Denver Police Department so that Mr. Neville could file a complaint against Representative Gerou. Mr. Neville gave his card to Trooper Hayes and asked him to give the card to Representative Gerou, which Trooper Hayes did. Senator Scheffel asked if Mr. Neville relayed the details of the incident with Representative Gerou to Trooper Hayes and Trooper Hayes responded that Mr. Neville said he was debating and talking to Representative Gerou and then she started poking him in the chest. Trooper Hayes noted that Sergeant Weil went up to the House Chamber to investigate the incident between Mr. Neville and Representative Gerou. Representative Pabon asked if Trooper Hayes had a conversation with Representative Gerou, and Trooper Hayes explained that he did when he gave Mr. Neville's card to Representative Gerou and that she didn't mention at that time that she had been threatened.

07:51 AM

Ms. Totsy Reece, came to the table and described her recollection of the events of February 15, 2013. She explained that she was sitting in the lobby of the House chambers around 11:00 a.m. or 11:30 a.m. working on her iPad when she noticed that there was a discussion between Representative Gerou and a man she hadn't seen before with a Rocky Mountain Gun Owner's (RMGO) logo on his shirt. She observed that the exchange was becoming heated, but couldn't hear what was being said until Representative Gerou asked the Sergeant-at-Arms to remove the man because he was threatening her. Ms. Reece noted that she didn't observe any physical contact between Representative Gerou and the man and described the gestures that both Representative Gerou and Mr. Neville were using in their conversation. Senator Scheffel asked Ms. Reece to comment on the culture of lobbying at the Capitol. He asked if she had any reason to believe that Representative Gerou would support the gun legislation, and Ms. Reece stated that she did not, but that she was not lobbying on the issue. Ms. Reece further discussed lobbying at the Capitol and how it has changed in recent years.

08:02 AM

Jennifer Gilroy, Office of Legislative Legal Services (OLLS), responded to questions from Senator Aguilar regarding whether Mr. Daniel Carey had responded to inquiries to submit his testimony to the committee. Ms. Gilroy further discussed the other witnesses that had been called before the committee but were not present, stating that she didn't know why Trooper Hodge was not present, that Mr. Dan Cartin and Minority Leader Waller had submitted letters asking the committee to excuse them as witnesses. Representative Pabon asked the OLLS to provide guidance on how to obtain input from the witnesses who had not appeared before the committee.



08:03 AM

Sharon Eubanks, OLLS, clarified that the committee's scope of the authority is to make requests for witnesses to appear and that Joint Rule 36 provides that the Executive Committee of the Legislative Council (executive committee) can request subpoena power. A request for subpoena power by the executive committee would trigger Joint Rule 33, which requires that the General Assembly as a whole approve the committee's request to issue subpoenas. She noted that absent requesting subpoena power, the committee does not have a lot of options to compel testimony. She clarified that she is unaware of instances in which the General Assembly has issued subpoenas. She discussed the force and effect of the subpoena power and noted that Mr. Carey is located out of state, and that she would have to research whether a subpoena issued by the committee would have any effect in another state. Senator Aguilar suggested that the Joint Rule 36 committee report to the executive committee that the Joint Rule 36 committee was unable to obtain testimony from Mr. Carey. The committee continued to discuss what to report to executive committee regarding Mr. Carey's failure to submit information to the Joint Rule 36 committee. Senator Scheffel asked how Mr. Carey was contacted, and Ms. Gilroy relayed information regarding her attempts to contact Mr. Carey. Representative Pabon stated that he was not prepared to make a report to the executive committee until the Joint Rule 36 committee had heard from Mr. Carey, and requested that the OLLS again attempt to contact Mr. Carey.

08:12 AM

Trooper Steve Hodge came to the table and recounted his recollection of the events of February 15, 2013. He explained that around 11 a.m., he was working in the basement of the Capitol when Mr. Judson escorted Mr. Neville to the State Trooper room. Mr. Judson asked Trooper Hodge to escort Mr. Neville outside of the building and Trooper Hodge did so. Trooper Hodge noted that all of his contact was with Mr. Neville and that Mr. Neville did not describe the incident with Representative Gerou to him.

08:15 AM

Senator Aguilar noted that Mr. Cartin had submitted a letter requesting that he be excused as a witness and the committee agreed that he should be excused. Senator Aguilar noted that Representative Waller also submitted a letter asking to be excused as a witness and noting that as a member of the executive committee, he would be making a decision regarding the committee's investigation. Senator Scheffel asked Ms. Gilroy to comment on situations in which members of executive committee were called as witnesses in ethics committees and Ms. Gilroy stated that she was not aware of a similar situation occurring in the past. Senator Scheffel recommended that Representative Waller be excused as a witness. Representative Pabon stated that Representative Waller should only be excused if the committee determined that his testimony would not be relevant and not because of his role as a member of the executive committee. The committee discussed whether Representative Waller's testimony may be relevant to their investigation. Senator Scheffel suggested that Representative Gerou be called back to offer testimony to aid the committee in determining if Representative Waller should be excused as a witness.

08:31 AM

Representative Gerou came to the table and explained that she wasn't comfortable advising the committee on whether it should excuse Representative Waller as a witness. She reiterated her previous testimony regarding the conversations she had with Representative Waller prior to the incident with Mr. Neville on February 15, 2013. Senator Scheffel noted that the committee had been provided a copy of the mailers sent by RMGO. Representative Gerou stated that her recollection was that the committee had also requested copies of any Facebook advertisement related to her positions on the gun legislation. She responded to questions from the committee about the mailers and whether she had previously seen them.


08:43 AM

The committee discussed whether to request a copy of any Facebook advertisements directed at Representative Gerou. Senator Aguilar requested that Mr. Neville come to the table to address questions regarding the mailers and the Facebook advertisements.

08:44 AM

Mr. Neville came to the table. He read a statement into the recording regarding his belief that the proceedings and Joint Rule 36 were unconstitutional. He stated that he declined to participate in the hearing further and left the room.

08:48 AM

Representative Pabon asked for guidance on how to proceed given Mr. Neville's absence from the hearing and Ms. Gilroy responded that she would provide additional guidance on the issue to the committee at a later date. Senator Aguilar discussed Joint Rule 36 and the potential for political reprisal for votes on certain legislation. Ms. Gilroy observed that the committee was proceeding under a rule adopted under the General Assembly's plenary power and that its job was to gather information to provide to executive committee.

08:56 AM

Representative Pabon clarified that the report made by the Joint Rule 36 Committee to the executive committee would be public, and noted that he believed the committee needed additional information to compile the report. The committee determined that it should again request that Representative Waller and Mr. Neville appear before the committee, and that Mr. Carey again be asked to provide a statement to the committee.

09:00 AM

Mr. Shawn Mitchell, Mr. Neville's attorney, stated that he would attempt to obtain a copy of the Facebook advertisement.

09:01 AM

The committee agreed to meet again on Wednesday, April 10, at 7:30 a.m. The committee directed the OLLS to prepare letters requesting that Representative Waller attend the hearing, and that Mr. Carey attend or send a written statement. The committee directed the OLLS to request that Mr. Neville attend the hearing and provide copies of any Facebook advertisements. The committee adjourned.